Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

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mediatechnology
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Detroit's LED Lighting Problem

Post by mediatechnology » Tue May 07, 2019 4:22 pm

Detroit — The city's lighting authority fears tens of thousands of streetlights are in jeopardy of failing just a few years after being installed, threatening to put some of Detroit's neighborhoods back into the dark.

The authority behind the state-of-the-art overhaul of Detroit's streetlight system filed a federal lawsuit Monday against the manufacturer of nearly a third of the city's 65,000 streetlights, saying a fix is expected to cost millions.

The Public Lighting Authority in its complaint against Leotek Electronics USA notes that upward of 20,000 LED lights are "prematurely dimming and burning out" and putting the city's revitalization progress "in jeopardy."

"Indeed, the PLA expects a system-wide failure of Leotek's luminaries in the short-term," the lawsuit reads.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... 650465002/
Lights in the city's downtown and Midtown aren't facing the same challenges since most were installed by different companies. Much of the downtown lighting, Taylor noted, is decorative and part of an investment made around the time that the Super Bowl was held in the city in 2006.

The lawsuit notes that the tens of thousands of lights purchased from the other manufacturers — Cree Inc., Cooper Industries Inc., and King Lighting Inc. — are performing to industry standards.
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billshurv
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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by billshurv » Tue May 07, 2019 4:54 pm

I predicted this would happen about 10 years ago, There was a rush to install LED at any cost (and boy was it costly in some cases) without actually taking the time to understand what mattered. In UK there are some cases of LED installs being stripped out and high pressure sodium going back in to get the performance required. Over here we had a problem of New Labour coming up with the clever idea of 'public private partnerships' thinking it was a great wheeze to give big construction contracts to run local services and that this would improve quality and reduce costs. Phony Tony really was that stupid!

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JR.
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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by JR. » Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 am

Sounds like a problem with one vendor's design. Heat still needs to be managed. Otherwise LEDs should provide excellent longer term reliability and lower maintenance.

Government purchasing is rarely good at understanding and vetting new technology.

An old friend of mine got involved in local government (in PA) and he shared some remarkable stories about snake oil deals people try to sell municipalities (involving solar and other new technologies). Municipalities that can issue bonds can easily spend way too much money on bad deals.

JR
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billshurv
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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by billshurv » Wed May 08, 2019 3:02 pm

JR. wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 am
Sounds like a problem with one vendor's design. Heat still needs to be managed. Otherwise LEDs should provide excellent longer term reliability and lower maintenance.
Interestingly about the time that high wattage white LED started to be fashionable for street lighting there were some interesting developments in high pressure sodium with smart ballasts that could vastly extend the life expectancy of the lamps. TCO comparisons were obviously exceedingly hard to do. Most street lights in UK are not on metered feeds, so they couldn't really care much about electricity savings despite all the green press releases.

Turns out municipal lighting is a fascinating field, although some of the people working in it could bore for their country :)

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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by JR. » Wed May 08, 2019 3:32 pm

billshurv wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:02 pm
JR. wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 am
Sounds like a problem with one vendor's design. Heat still needs to be managed. Otherwise LEDs should provide excellent longer term reliability and lower maintenance.
Interestingly about the time that high wattage white LED started to be fashionable for street lighting there were some interesting developments in high pressure sodium with smart ballasts that could vastly extend the life expectancy of the lamps. TCO comparisons were obviously exceedingly hard to do. Most street lights in UK are not on metered feeds, so they couldn't really care much about electricity savings despite all the green press releases.
I'm pretty sure same here... utilities charge flat fees for street lighting.

In my little burg the local utility installed power poles and lighting for the jogging/walking track around the softball field nobody uses. I do not know any details but think the power company fronted the cost of the poles, lamps, and installation, for the long term back end of regular power billing. (They hit the town water main drilling one of their holes for a lighting pole, so the town paid up front too :lol: ).


One option with LED lighting that isn't available with vapor sodium is instant on smart operation, where street lights could sense for auto headlights at a distance and only turn on as needed. Night time traffic around me is pretty light so huge savings could be available from smart lighting that only runs as needed. I could even imagine more integration between smart vehicles and street lighting... but not here, not in my lifetime. :lol:
Turns out municipal lighting is a fascinating field, although some of the people working in it could bore for their country :)
As i recall the funny deal they tried to sell to my friend's town in PA involved solar powered, back up battery and lighting for remote area lighting. The argument that didn't "smell" right to me was that they claimed it was competitive or even cheaper than running a spur from the utility power distribution. Maybe cheaper up front but not long term...

My friend took my advice to gong the deal, but it was an easy sell...he didn't trust them already.

JR
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billshurv
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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by billshurv » Thu May 09, 2019 4:19 am

JR. wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 am

In my little burg the local utility installed power poles and lighting for the jogging/walking track around the softball field nobody uses. I do not know any details but think the power company fronted the cost of the poles, lamps, and installation, for the long term back end of regular power billing. (They hit the town water main drilling one of their holes for a lighting pole, so the town paid up front too :lol: ).
There have been a lot of tests of setups where you can turn on field lighting with an SMS and get charged for the power. However the cost of the system to do all that usually outweighs any savings!

One option with LED lighting that isn't available with vapor sodium is instant on smart operation, where street lights could sense for auto headlights at a distance and only turn on as needed. Night time traffic around me is pretty light so huge savings could be available from smart lighting that only runs as needed. I could even imagine more integration between smart vehicles and street lighting... but not here, not in my lifetime. :lol:
The instant on is a good thing in some use cases, but in UK on motorways now they just turn the lights out at 1AM. Its a bit spooky when you are driving along and the whole road goes dark. When they have considered this in cities there has been a huge fuss over potential crime issues.

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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by mediatechnology » Thu May 09, 2019 7:42 am

Before I replaced the florescent T12 lights in the garage I electronically-ballasted them and it made a huge difference in brightness, lowered cold start-up time and improved tube life.
I can see how electronic ballasts could improve sodium lighting.

I think we may have entered a phase where LED longevity may be reduced due to pricing pressure.
Heatsinks and ceramics are surely a big cost and the newer ones, though ever-more-efficient, seem to run hotter.
in UK on motorways now they just turn the lights out at 1AM.
Didn't they used to shut off power in Ireland at night?
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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by billshurv » Thu May 09, 2019 8:11 am

Can't comment about Ireland lighting but will ask some Irish colleagues in the office.

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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by JR. » Thu May 09, 2019 8:55 am

billshurv wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 4:19 am
JR. wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 am

In my little burg the local utility installed power poles and lighting for the jogging/walking track around the softball field nobody uses. I do not know any details but think the power company fronted the cost of the poles, lamps, and installation, for the long term back end of regular power billing. (They hit the town water main drilling one of their holes for a lighting pole, so the town paid up front too :lol: ).
There have been a lot of tests of setups where you can turn on field lighting with an SMS and get charged for the power. However the cost of the system to do all that usually outweighs any savings!
google says SMS is text messaging... unclear about what you are saying/
One option with LED lighting that isn't available with vapor sodium is instant on smart operation, where street lights could sense for auto headlights at a distance and only turn on as needed. Night time traffic around me is pretty light so huge savings could be available from smart lighting that only runs as needed. I could even imagine more integration between smart vehicles and street lighting... but not here, not in my lifetime. :lol:
The instant on is a good thing in some use cases, but in UK on motorways now they just turn the lights out at 1AM. Its a bit spooky when you are driving along and the whole road goes dark. When they have considered this in cities there has been a huge fuss over potential crime issues.
I favor smart usage of resources, when cost effective.

JR
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Re: Residential Lighting with LEDs: Retrofitting the Pink Ranch

Post by JR. » Thu May 09, 2019 8:58 am

mediatechnology wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:42 am
Before I replaced the florescent T12 lights in the garage I electronically-ballasted them and it made a huge difference in brightness, lowered cold start-up time and improved tube life.
I can see how electronic ballasts could improve sodium lighting.

I think we may have entered a phase where LED longevity may be reduced due to pricing pressure.
Heatsinks and ceramics are surely a big cost and the newer ones, though ever-more-efficient, seem to run hotter.
in UK on motorways now they just turn the lights out at 1AM.
Didn't they used to shut off power in Ireland at night?
South Africa is suffering rolling blackouts from power shedding due to generation problems. We tend to take electricity for granted, and complain about the price (me with my clean coal plant), but it could always be worse.

JR
Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

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